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@Princess-Cheeseballs Princess-Cheeseballs commented Oct 19, 2025

About the PR

As a forewarning, this was the last option I wanted to do but here we are.
Removed Wizard from being a round start GameMode or SubGamemode. It is now midround only.

This is intended to be a temporary change until Wiz is in a workable state

Why / Balance

Wizard is exceptionally unfinished in its current state, this is known but it's been let pass because refactors are ongoing to allow for it to be fixed up.
However, these refactors have taken months and as someone who has reviewed and worked on some, they're going to take more moths before we can even start rebalancing the wizard.

Normally that's fine were it not for the fact that the Wizard has massive design flaws that make it a headache for both admins and players alike.

For a non-comprehensive list:

  • The wizard is a nuclear bomb of power with genuinely broken offensive spells
    • The rod literally deletes people
    • Fireball is an unreactable instant kill
    • Wizard is more frequently killed by their own spells than anything the station throws at them
    • Wizard has complete 2.9 immunity by design so they can end rounds by loosing if they want, and are enabled to by broken buggy spells
  • The wizard is a friendly antag trap
    • Wizard is the number one most bwoinked antag for friendly antagging. Which wouldn't be a problem if we had dynamic, or they had spells to inconvenience the crew, or were anything but the driving force of a round
  • Wizard is not fun for the station
    • The most common reaction to a wizard is groaning when a wizard announces themselves
    • People will hunt down wizards even if they haven't done anything due to the wizard's obscenely high power level and lack of engagement with the crew
    • Wizards can just ruin rounds, if a wizard destroys the station before nukies arrive, then they get a free round. Or the wizard hits them with a fireball/rod and just ends their round instantly. Neither scenario is fun.
    • Event spells are a free "Chaos" option that isn't fun since it puts the entire station in a rules gray area and enables the worst of player behaviors
    • Event spells also just ruin other antagonist rounds by forcing evac immediately
  • Wizard is a massive admin headache
    • Friendly antagging aside the wizard has many more issues that give admins a headache
    • Event spells have forced rules changes to Free Agent and are a source of equal if not more ahelps than the revs gamemode
    • A wizard dying early means admins have to find some other way to drive the round, the crew has no way of knowing if the wizard was the only antag that round and if it would be a dick move to call evac or not

The obscenely high power level of wizard, plus the lack of spell selection, plus the lack of interesting chaos spells results in an antag who can basically only end rounds and force evac. If a wizard wants to do a gimmick their options are exceptionally limited and more often than not, will not drive the round or will lead to them getting killed because they lack ways to defend themselves.

Wizard works as a mid-round since it means the round has already had something driving it and there's a lot less worry about the wizard friendly antagging or ending the round because them appearing typically means the round is going to end soon anyways.

Technical details

Removed wizard from roundstart gamemodes and subgamemodes.

Media

Requirements

Breaking changes

Changelog

🆑

  • tweak: Wizard is now only a midround spawn.

@PJBot PJBot added S: Untriaged Status: Indicates an item has not been triaged and doesn't have appropriate labels. S: Approved Status: Reviewed and approved by at least one maintainer; a PR may require another approval. S: Needs Review Status: Requires additional reviews before being fully accepted. Not to be replaced by S: Approved. Changes: No C# Changes: Requires no C# knowledge to review or fix this item. size/XS Denotes a PR that changes 0-9 lines. labels Oct 19, 2025
@Princess-Cheeseballs Princess-Cheeseballs added the S: Undergoing Discussion Status: Currently going through an extended discussion, as per procedure. label Oct 19, 2025
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PJBot commented Oct 19, 2025

A discussion thread has been opened.

Please limit all further game design discussion to the following Topic:
https://forum.spacestation14.com/t/remove-wizard-roundstart-antag/24764/1


Beep Boop, this comment was made automatically.

@Princess-Cheeseballs Princess-Cheeseballs added P1: High Priority: Higher priority than other items, but isn't an emergency. DB: Beginner Friendly Difficulty: Great for beginners. Unambiguous in scope, and explains how to achieve the result. A: Roundflow/Antag Area: Roundflow - "What happens in the game", including antagonist roles and their capabilities T: Of Admin Interest Type: Affects administration work a lot, and might require admins to weigh in on and removed S: Untriaged Status: Indicates an item has not been triaged and doesn't have appropriate labels. labels Oct 19, 2025
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I approve

@beck-thompson
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Locking the conversation, please take your comments to the forum thread!

@space-wizards space-wizards locked and limited conversation to collaborators Oct 19, 2025
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@keronshb keronshb left a comment

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This should only be removing it as a pure roundstart solo game mode. This should not be removing it as a subgamemode.

@PJBot PJBot added S: Awaiting Changes Status: Changes are required before another review can happen and removed S: Needs Review Status: Requires additional reviews before being fully accepted. Not to be replaced by S: Approved. labels Oct 19, 2025
@VasilisThePikachu VasilisThePikachu dismissed keronshb’s stale review October 20, 2025 12:44

Please await vote for if the subgamemode should be removed as well before adding a requested changes review. (IDK if the vote was up when this was requested but it will happen anyway)

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Instead of only removing the rule you should also remove it from the antag selection screen

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Instead of only removing the rule you should also remove it from the antag selection screen

Having it in the antag selection screen would communicate if a player is rolebanned from wizard (important due to friendly wizards) and also is useful in case admins test wizard gamemode.

If I was going to remove them from the screen I'd also just delete the gamemode itself since then no one would be able to roll it.

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ScarKy0 commented Oct 21, 2025

Having it in the antag selection screen would communicate if a player is rolebanned from wizard (important due to friendly wizards) and also is useful in case admins test wizard gamemode.

Not important considering it seems the midround is going to be removed as well (as per the vote)
Having a dummy antag in the menu that can never be played outside of admin intervention makes no sense, and for testing we just addgamerule SubWizard

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Not important considering it seems the midround is going to be removed as well (as per the vote) Having a dummy antag in the menu that can never be played outside of admin intervention makes no sense, and for testing we just addgamerule SubWizard

Midround isn't being removed just the Subgamemode (So like Nukie + Wiz)

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Not important considering it seems the midround is going to be removed as well (as per the vote)

Subgamerule =/= midround.

Subgamerule is what allows it to spawn roundstart along other modes, and visa versa.
Which is why I still think that should stay in because most of the issue is on the focus of it being roundstart solo and not roundstart in general

Subgame mode with event spells on a timer is infinitely better than removing it from roundstart outright.

@PJBot PJBot added size/S Denotes a PR that changes 10-99 lines. and removed size/XS Denotes a PR that changes 0-9 lines. labels Oct 21, 2025
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Removed wizard from lobby UI as per the vote. I tested in game and this also clears already existing antag preferences for wizard.

@Princess-Cheeseballs Princess-Cheeseballs changed the base branch from master to staging October 23, 2025 18:21
@Princess-Cheeseballs Princess-Cheeseballs changed the title Remove Wizard Roundstart Antag [STAGING] Remove Wizard Roundstart Antag Oct 23, 2025
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Redirected to staging. When the poll ends, we merge as is if we're removing both, or remove the SubGamemodeRule stuff if we're only removing standalone wizard.

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Labels

A: Roundflow/Antag Area: Roundflow - "What happens in the game", including antagonist roles and their capabilities Changes: No C# Changes: Requires no C# knowledge to review or fix this item. DB: Beginner Friendly Difficulty: Great for beginners. Unambiguous in scope, and explains how to achieve the result. P1: High Priority: Higher priority than other items, but isn't an emergency. S: Approved Status: Reviewed and approved by at least one maintainer; a PR may require another approval. S: Awaiting Changes Status: Changes are required before another review can happen S: Undergoing Discussion Status: Currently going through an extended discussion, as per procedure. size/S Denotes a PR that changes 10-99 lines. T: Of Admin Interest Type: Affects administration work a lot, and might require admins to weigh in on

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